Rusi: Su-57 bolji je i od F-22 i F-35

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:recimo zanimljiv mi je WW2, i zašto ga je Njemačka.. izgubila.. nafta, nafta i nafta. 
Ispada čak da je Hitler u nekim stvarima bio u pravu kada je raspravljao sa generalima, ovi van vojne taktike i strategije, nisu ništa kužili ekonomiju. 
Jednostavno Njemačka vojska , wehrmacht, iako se često asocira na blitzkrieg, je bila uglavnom vojska koja se kretala pješice i konjskim zapregama.. Motoriziranih divizija je bilo svega 15ak % u njemačkoj vojsci,  sve ostalo je išlo pješice.. 
Rusi su sa druge strane dobili 400 000 (ili 300 000) Američkih kamiona, i pune tankove goriva(malo svoga malo američkog) , što im je omogućilo da recimo u kontra napadima na Njemačku kod Staljingrada, operacije Bagration, Kurska, prodiru duboko i po stotine kilometara u svega par dana.. u suprotnom da im nije toliko Američkih kamiona, nebi uopće mogli izvoditi takve kontra-napade, doslovno bi im se udar "ispuhao" u roku 2-3 dana, jer bi tenkovi ostali bez municije i goriva, a pješadija i artiljerija nebi mogli pratiti prodor, i onda adio ofenziva.. 
300 000 Američkih kamiona je odlučilo istočnu frontu recimo.. Rusi su bili 100% motorizirana vojska, a Njemački ministri su predlagali da Njemačka smanji količinu tenkova i vozila, jer troše puno goriva kojeg Njemačka nema dovoljno.. i opet svi zajedno USA i Rusija i Britanija , jedva su pobjedili švabe.. jedva.. 
da je samo jedna od tih zemalja bila van WW2, bilo SSSr ili USA/Britanija, danas bi svi na svijetu učili u osnovnoj prvo Njemački umjesto Engleskog

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

veber wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:samo sranje je sa Njemačkom, desilo bi im se isto što u WW2.. nemaju vlastitih resursa , tipa da im Ameri  uvedu "pomorsku blokadu, Rusi a rusi prestanu prodavati metale i naftu(iako bi i rusima gadno pao standard) ali odmah je Njemačka nakon toga nesposobna za ratovanje duže od par mjeseci bez obzira koliko jaku industriju i proizvodnju imali..
(u WW2,  Sovjetski savez i Njemačka su imali jednaku proizvodnju, USA je imala 44% svjetske industrije ,  a danas Njemačka industrija je nekoliko puta veća od Ruske, a izvoz industrije čak dosta veći od Američkog -  Njemačka je danas ekonomski puno jača u odnosu na USA i Rusiju nego 1941)
zato su izgubili WW2, zbog resursa, .. zbog resursa su ga pokrenuli, a zbog resursa su ga i izgubili, gledao sam par analiza, nije ništa drugo sjebalo nego nedostatak goriva, metala, itd

amerika je pobjedila brojem, ekonomskim brojem. njemačka je spušila jer je debil došao na vlast. japanci su isto imali tu megalomansku potrebu osvajanja.

točno to. Amerika je pobjedila brojem.. 

gledao sam šta su sve dali Rusima.. 
hranili su im cijelu vojsku na fronti sa USA hranom
dali im 300 000 -400 000 kamiona, koji su bili kvalitetniji od Ruskih i Rusija ih nije trebala proizvoditi nego se fokusirati samo na proizvodnju odličnih T-34 tenkova - opisao sam vam gore koliko si bitni ti kamioni za ratovanje.. 
dali su im nešto tipa 40 ili 60% svih granata itd
dali su im ogromne količine goriva za avione, rusko gorivo za ruske avione je bilo loše kvalitete, ili se mješalo sa američkim ili se koristilo samo američko.. nešto tipa 30-40% goriva 
ogromne količine goriva za tenkove i kamione(iako neznam koliko točno , možda i nije bitno)
recimo rusija je imala kroničan nedostatak aluminija koji je važan u proizvodnji od tenkova do aviona, imali su ga čak 4puta manje nego njemci, - nebi uopće mogli proizvoditi toliko tenkova i aviona, da nije bilo američkog aluminija
telegrafske žice, milijune kilometara doslovno, što je omogućilo bolju komunikaciju ruske vojske
radio stanice koje su tko god kuži u ratovanje, zna koliko su bitne radio stanice, ruske su bile sranje, pa su ih prestali proizvoditi i koristili samo američke
ogromnu količinu civilnih automobila koji su nužni za funkcionirane države.. rusi zbog toga nisu trebali svoje tvornice prešaltavati u civilne automobile, nego se samo fokusirati na tenkove
spomenio sam ogromne količine goriva za avione, ali i velik broj samih aviona..
recimo u bitci za moskvu, u pojedinim segmentima fronte, 40% svih teških i srednjih tenkova su bili britanski tenkovi..
plus razne industrijske pogone itd,

veber wrote:levi. amerika je na dnevnoj proizvodnji gradila razarč

veber wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:recimo zanimljiv mi je WW2, i zašto ga je Njemačka.. izgubila.. nafta, nafta i nafta. 
Ispada čak da je Hitler u nekim stvarima bio u pravu kada je raspravljao sa generalima, ovi van vojne taktike i strategije, nisu ništa kužili ekonomiju. 
Jednostavno Njemačka vojska , wehrmacht, iako se često asocira na blitzkrieg, je bila uglavnom vojska koja se kretala pješice i konjskim zapregama.. Motoriziranih divizija je bilo svega 15ak % u njemačkoj vojsci,  sve ostalo je išlo pješice.. 
Rusi su sa druge strane dobili 400 000 (ili 300 000) Američkih kamiona, i pune tankove goriva(malo svoga malo američkog) , što im je omogućilo da recimo u kontra napadima na Njemačku kod Staljingrada, operacije Bagration, Kurska, prodiru duboko i po stotine kilometara u svega par dana.. u suprotnom da im nije toliko Američkih kamiona, nebi uopće mogli izvoditi takve kontra-napade, doslovno bi im se udar "ispuhao" u roku 2-3 dana, jer bi tenkovi ostali bez municije i goriva, a pješadija i artiljerija nebi mogli pratiti prodor, i onda adio ofenziva.. 
300 000 Američkih kamiona je odlučilo istočnu frontu recimo.. Rusi su bili 100% motorizirana vojska, a Njemački ministri su predlagali da Njemačka smanji količinu tenkova i vozila, jer troše puno goriva kojeg Njemačka nema dovoljno.. i opet svi zajedno USA i Rusija i Britanija , jedva su pobjedili švabe.. jedva.. 
da je samo jedna od tih zemalja bila van WW2, bilo SSSr ili USA/Britanija, danas bi svi na svijetu učili u osnovnoj prvo Njemački umjesto Engleskog

nata je dio. pa imaš pristup mom cloudu? nemaš? knjiga hrpa.

Leviathan2 wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

veber wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:samo sranje je sa Njemačkom, desilo bi im se isto što u WW2.. nemaju vlastitih resursa , tipa da im Ameri  uvedu "pomorsku blokadu, Rusi a rusi prestanu prodavati metale i naftu(iako bi i rusima gadno pao standard) ali odmah je Njemačka nakon toga nesposobna za ratovanje duže od par mjeseci bez obzira koliko jaku industriju i proizvodnju imali..
(u WW2,  Sovjetski savez i Njemačka su imali jednaku proizvodnju, USA je imala 44% svjetske industrije ,  a danas Njemačka industrija je nekoliko puta veća od Ruske, a izvoz industrije čak dosta veći od Američkog -  Njemačka je danas ekonomski puno jača u odnosu na USA i Rusiju nego 1941)
zato su izgubili WW2, zbog resursa, .. zbog resursa su ga pokrenuli, a zbog resursa su ga i izgubili, gledao sam par analiza, nije ništa drugo sjebalo nego nedostatak goriva, metala, itd

amerika je pobjedila brojem, ekonomskim brojem. njemačka je spušila jer je debil došao na vlast. japanci su isto imali tu megalomansku potrebu osvajanja.

točno to. Amerika je pobjedila brojem.. 

gledao sam šta su sve dali Rusima.. 
hranili su im cijelu vojsku na fronti sa USA hranom
dali im 300 000 -400 000 kamiona, koji su bili kvalitetniji od Ruskih i Rusija ih nije trebala proizvoditi nego se fokusirati samo na proizvodnju odličnih T-34 tenkova - opisao sam vam gore koliko si bitni ti kamioni za ratovanje.. 
dali su im nešto tipa 40 ili 60% svih granata itd
dali su im ogromne količine goriva za avione, rusko gorivo za ruske avione je bilo loše kvalitete, ili se mješalo sa američkim ili se koristilo samo američko.. nešto tipa 30-40% goriva 
ogromne količine goriva za tenkove i kamione(iako neznam koliko točno , možda i nije bitno)
recimo rusija je imala kroničan nedostatak aluminija koji je važan u proizvodnji od tenkova do aviona, imali su ga čak 4puta manje nego njemci, - nebi uopće mogli proizvoditi toliko tenkova i aviona, da nije bilo američkog aluminija
telegrafske žice, milijune kilometara doslovno, što je omogućilo bolju komunikaciju ruske vojske
radio stanice koje su tko god kuži u ratovanje, zna koliko su bitne radio stanice, ruske su bile sranje, pa su ih prestali proizvoditi i koristili samo američke
ogromnu količinu civilnih automobila koji su nužni za funkcionirane države.. rusi zbog toga nisu trebali svoje tvornice prešaltavati u civilne automobile, nego se samo fokusirati na tenkove
spomenio sam ogromne količine goriva za avione, ali i velik broj samih aviona..
recimo u bitci za moskvu, u pojedinim segmentima fronte, 40% svih teških i srednjih tenkova su bili britanski tenkovi..
plus razne industrijske pogone itd,

mislim da tu ima dosta pretjerivanja, ispada na kraju da su ameri maltene sve rusima poslali, jesu poslali ogroman broj kamiona, no 300 000 kamiona bi bilo kao da su imali 20 brodova koji su svakodnevno uplovljavali u cccp do kraj arata, nemojmo sad biti ko .. da ne spomenem one koji uvelicavaju :)
sve to skupa da prevezu u cccp bi im trebale godine , dajte ljudi smanjite malo, a cisto me zanima kud bi dostavili britanske tenkove :)
mislim, naletih na svakojake informacije o cccp i ogroman dio je cisto pretjerivanje, sto samih rusa sto amera, a najvise prednjace ukrajinci i poljaci

Significance[edit]

Ratio of Gross domestic product between Allied and Axis powers, 1938–1945. See Military production during World War II.

On the whole the following conclusion can be drawn: that without these Western shipments under Lend-Lease the Soviet Union not only would not have been able to win the Great Patriotic War, it would not have been able even to oppose the German invaders, since it could not itself produce sufficient quantities of arms and military equipment or adequate supplies of fuel and ammunition. The Soviet authorities were well aware of this dependency on Lend-Lease. Thus, Stalin told Harry Hopkins [FDR's emissary to Moscow in July 1941] that the U.S.S.R. could not match Germany's might as an occupier of Europe and its resources.^[24]

I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.^[30]

Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us… But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.^[33]

Leviathan2 wrote:

veber wrote:levi. amerika je na dnevnoj proizvodnji gradila razarč

smanji :D
na dnevnoj proizvodnji nemos obicni jebeni gliser napravit
nemojte ljudi pretjerivat nije razaraz auto , ne kazem da kamione nije mogla, al  razarace nije mogla, koliko se kuzim u brodogradnju, jedino bi mogli takvo nesto napravit da su imali one naprave iz startreka gdje  kuhaju kavu , da im materijaliziraju

veber wrote:

Leviathan2 wrote:

veber wrote:levi. amerika je na dnevnoj proizvodnji gradila razarč

smanji :D
na dnevnoj proizvodnji nemos obicni jebeni gliser napravit
nemojte ljudi pretjerivat nije razaraz auto , ne kazem da kamione nije mogla, al  razarace nije mogla, koliko se kuzim u brodogradnju, jedino bi mogli takvo nesto napravit da su imali one naprave iz startreka gdje  kuhaju kavu , da im materijaliziraju

ne kužite industriju. ako imaš na navozu 30 brodova, a dobro složenu proizvodnju. na dnevnoj bazi 1, a to znaći jebenu logistiku. subaru je mali proizvođač. koliko auta proizvede? dnevno?

• 3,000+ Hurricanes
  
  
• 4,000+ other aircraft
  
  
• 27 naval vessels
  
  
• 5,218 tanks (including 1,380 Valentines from Canada)
  
  
• 5,000+ anti-tank guns
  
  
• 4,020 ambulances and trucks
  
  
• 323 machinery trucks (mobile vehicle workshops equipped with generators and all the welding and power tools required to perform heavy servicing)
  
  
• 1,212 Universal Carriers and Loyd Carriers (with another 1,348 from Canada )
  
  
• 1,721 motorcycles
  
  
• £1.15bn worth of aircraft engines
  
  
• 1,474 radar sets
  
  
• 4,338 radio sets
  
  
• 600 naval radar and sonar sets
  
  
• Hundreds of naval guns
  
  
• 15 million pairs of boots
  
  

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

Leviathan2 wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

veber wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:samo sranje je sa Njemačkom, desilo bi im se isto što u WW2.. nemaju vlastitih resursa , tipa da im Ameri  uvedu "pomorsku blokadu, Rusi a rusi prestanu prodavati metale i naftu(iako bi i rusima gadno pao standard) ali odmah je Njemačka nakon toga nesposobna za ratovanje duže od par mjeseci bez obzira koliko jaku industriju i proizvodnju imali..
(u WW2,  Sovjetski savez i Njemačka su imali jednaku proizvodnju, USA je imala 44% svjetske industrije ,  a danas Njemačka industrija je nekoliko puta veća od Ruske, a izvoz industrije čak dosta veći od Američkog -  Njemačka je danas ekonomski puno jača u odnosu na USA i Rusiju nego 1941)
zato su izgubili WW2, zbog resursa, .. zbog resursa su ga pokrenuli, a zbog resursa su ga i izgubili, gledao sam par analiza, nije ništa drugo sjebalo nego nedostatak goriva, metala, itd

amerika je pobjedila brojem, ekonomskim brojem. njemačka je spušila jer je debil došao na vlast. japanci su isto imali tu megalomansku potrebu osvajanja.

točno to. Amerika je pobjedila brojem.. 

gledao sam šta su sve dali Rusima.. 
hranili su im cijelu vojsku na fronti sa USA hranom
dali im 300 000 -400 000 kamiona, koji su bili kvalitetniji od Ruskih i Rusija ih nije trebala proizvoditi nego se fokusirati samo na proizvodnju odličnih T-34 tenkova - opisao sam vam gore koliko si bitni ti kamioni za ratovanje.. 
dali su im nešto tipa 40 ili 60% svih granata itd
dali su im ogromne količine goriva za avione, rusko gorivo za ruske avione je bilo loše kvalitete, ili se mješalo sa američkim ili se koristilo samo američko.. nešto tipa 30-40% goriva 
ogromne količine goriva za tenkove i kamione(iako neznam koliko točno , možda i nije bitno)
recimo rusija je imala kroničan nedostatak aluminija koji je važan u proizvodnji od tenkova do aviona, imali su ga čak 4puta manje nego njemci, - nebi uopće mogli proizvoditi toliko tenkova i aviona, da nije bilo američkog aluminija
telegrafske žice, milijune kilometara doslovno, što je omogućilo bolju komunikaciju ruske vojske
radio stanice koje su tko god kuži u ratovanje, zna koliko su bitne radio stanice, ruske su bile sranje, pa su ih prestali proizvoditi i koristili samo američke
ogromnu količinu civilnih automobila koji su nužni za funkcionirane države.. rusi zbog toga nisu trebali svoje tvornice prešaltavati u civilne automobile, nego se samo fokusirati na tenkove
spomenio sam ogromne količine goriva za avione, ali i velik broj samih aviona..
recimo u bitci za moskvu, u pojedinim segmentima fronte, 40% svih teških i srednjih tenkova su bili britanski tenkovi..
plus razne industrijske pogone itd,

mislim da tu ima dosta pretjerivanja, ispada na kraju da su ameri maltene sve rusima poslali, jesu poslali ogroman broj kamiona, no 300 000 kamiona bi bilo kao da su imali 20 brodova koji su svakodnevno uplovljavali u cccp do kraj arata, nemojmo sad biti ko .. da ne spomenem one koji uvelicavaju :)
sve to skupa da prevezu u cccp bi im trebale godine , dajte ljudi smanjite malo, a cisto me zanima kud bi dostavili britanske tenkove :)
mislim, naletih na svakojake informacije o cccp i ogroman dio je cisto pretjerivanje, sto samih rusa sto amera, a najvise prednjace ukrajinci i poljaci

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

evo ti sa vikipedije.. citiraju sovjetske povjesničare, žukova, hrušćeva i staljina

Significance[edit]

Ratio of Gross domestic product between Allied and Axis powers, 1938–1945. See Military production during World War II.

Lend-Lease helped the British and other Allied forces win the war. Even after the United States forces in Europe and the Pacific began to attain full strength during 1943–1944, Lend-Lease continued. Most remaining Allies were largely self-sufficient in frontline equipment (such as tanks and fighter aircraft) by this time, but Lend-Lease provided a useful supplement in this category even so, and Lend-Lease logistical supplies (including motor vehicles and railroad equipment) were of enormous assistance.^[24]
Much of the aid can be better understood when considering the economic distortions caused by the war. Most belligerent powers decreased severely production of non-essentials, concentrating on producing weapons. This inevitably produced shortages of related products needed by the military or as part of the military-industrial complex. For example, the USSR was very dependent on rail transportation, but the war practically ended rail equipment production. Just 446 locomotives were produced during the war,^[25] with only 92 of those being built between 1942 and 1945.^[26] In total, 92.7% of the wartime production of railroad equipment by the USSR was supplied by Lend-Lease,^[24] including 1,911 locomotives and 11,225 railcars^[27] which augmented the existing prewar stocks of at least 20,000 locomotives and half a million railcars.^[28]
Furthermore, much of the logistical assistance of the Soviet military was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed, by 1945, nearly a third of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge ¾ ton and Studebaker2½ ton were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminum, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.^[29]
Lend-Lease also supplied significant amounts of weapons and ammunition. The Soviet air force received 18,200 aircraft, which amounted to about 30% of Soviet wartime aircraft production (mid 1941-45).^[24] And while most tank units were Soviet-built models, some 7,000 Lend-Lease tanks were deployed by the Red Army, or 8% of war-time production.
According to the Russian historian Boris Vadimovich Sokolov, Lend-Lease had a crucial role in winning the war:

On the whole the following conclusion can be drawn: that without these Western shipments under Lend-Lease the Soviet Union not only would not have been able to win the Great Patriotic War, it would not have been able even to oppose the German invaders, since it could not itself produce sufficient quantities of arms and military equipment or adequate supplies of fuel and ammunition. The Soviet authorities were well aware of this dependency on Lend-Lease. Thus, Stalin told Harry Hopkins [FDR's emissary to Moscow in July 1941] that the U.S.S.R. could not match Germany's might as an occupier of Europe and its resources.^[24]

Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:

I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.^[30]

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference during 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war."^[31][32]
In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying:

Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us… But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.^[33]

Leviathan2 wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

Leviathan2 wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

veber wrote:
amerika je pobjedila brojem, ekonomskim brojem. njemačka je spušila jer je debil došao na vlast. japanci su isto imali tu megalomansku potrebu osvajanja.

točno to. Amerika je pobjedila brojem.. 

gledao sam šta su sve dali Rusima.. 
hranili su im cijelu vojsku na fronti sa USA hranom
dali im 300 000 -400 000 kamiona, koji su bili kvalitetniji od Ruskih i Rusija ih nije trebala proizvoditi nego se fokusirati samo na proizvodnju odličnih T-34 tenkova - opisao sam vam gore koliko si bitni ti kamioni za ratovanje.. 
dali su im nešto tipa 40 ili 60% svih granata itd
dali su im ogromne količine goriva za avione, rusko gorivo za ruske avione je bilo loše kvalitete, ili se mješalo sa američkim ili se koristilo samo američko.. nešto tipa 30-40% goriva 
ogromne količine goriva za tenkove i kamione(iako neznam koliko točno , možda i nije bitno)
recimo rusija je imala kroničan nedostatak aluminija koji je važan u proizvodnji od tenkova do aviona, imali su ga čak 4puta manje nego njemci, - nebi uopće mogli proizvoditi toliko tenkova i aviona, da nije bilo američkog aluminija
telegrafske žice, milijune kilometara doslovno, što je omogućilo bolju komunikaciju ruske vojske
radio stanice koje su tko god kuži u ratovanje, zna koliko su bitne radio stanice, ruske su bile sranje, pa su ih prestali proizvoditi i koristili samo američke
ogromnu količinu civilnih automobila koji su nužni za funkcionirane države.. rusi zbog toga nisu trebali svoje tvornice prešaltavati u civilne automobile, nego se samo fokusirati na tenkove
spomenio sam ogromne količine goriva za avione, ali i velik broj samih aviona..
recimo u bitci za moskvu, u pojedinim segmentima fronte, 40% svih teških i srednjih tenkova su bili britanski tenkovi..
plus razne industrijske pogone itd,

mislim da tu ima dosta pretjerivanja, ispada na kraju da su ameri maltene sve rusima poslali, jesu poslali ogroman broj kamiona, no 300 000 kamiona bi bilo kao da su imali 20 brodova koji su svakodnevno uplovljavali u cccp do kraj arata, nemojmo sad biti ko .. da ne spomenem one koji uvelicavaju :)
sve to skupa da prevezu u cccp bi im trebale godine , dajte ljudi smanjite malo, a cisto me zanima kud bi dostavili britanske tenkove :)
mislim, naletih na svakojake informacije o cccp i ogroman dio je cisto pretjerivanje, sto samih rusa sto amera, a najvise prednjace ukrajinci i poljaci

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

evo ti sa vikipedije.. citiraju sovjetske povjesničare, žukova, hrušćeva i staljina

Significance[edit]

Ratio of Gross domestic product between Allied and Axis powers, 1938–1945. See Military production during World War II.

Lend-Lease helped the British and other Allied forces win the war. Even after the United States forces in Europe and the Pacific began to attain full strength during 1943–1944, Lend-Lease continued. Most remaining Allies were largely self-sufficient in frontline equipment (such as tanks and fighter aircraft) by this time, but Lend-Lease provided a useful supplement in this category even so, and Lend-Lease logistical supplies (including motor vehicles and railroad equipment) were of enormous assistance.^[24]
Much of the aid can be better understood when considering the economic distortions caused by the war. Most belligerent powers decreased severely production of non-essentials, concentrating on producing weapons. This inevitably produced shortages of related products needed by the military or as part of the military-industrial complex. For example, the USSR was very dependent on rail transportation, but the war practically ended rail equipment production. Just 446 locomotives were produced during the war,^[25] with only 92 of those being built between 1942 and 1945.^[26] In total, 92.7% of the wartime production of railroad equipment by the USSR was supplied by Lend-Lease,^[24] including 1,911 locomotives and 11,225 railcars^[27] which augmented the existing prewar stocks of at least 20,000 locomotives and half a million railcars.^[28]
Furthermore, much of the logistical assistance of the Soviet military was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed, by 1945, nearly a third of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge ¾ ton and Studebaker2½ ton were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminum, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.^[29]
Lend-Lease also supplied significant amounts of weapons and ammunition. The Soviet air force received 18,200 aircraft, which amounted to about 30% of Soviet wartime aircraft production (mid 1941-45).^[24] And while most tank units were Soviet-built models, some 7,000 Lend-Lease tanks were deployed by the Red Army, or 8% of war-time production.
According to the Russian historian Boris Vadimovich Sokolov, Lend-Lease had a crucial role in winning the war:

On the whole the following conclusion can be drawn: that without these Western shipments under Lend-Lease the Soviet Union not only would not have been able to win the Great Patriotic War, it would not have been able even to oppose the German invaders, since it could not itself produce sufficient quantities of arms and military equipment or adequate supplies of fuel and ammunition. The Soviet authorities were well aware of this dependency on Lend-Lease. Thus, Stalin told Harry Hopkins [FDR's emissary to Moscow in July 1941] that the U.S.S.R. could not match Germany's might as an occupier of Europe and its resources.^[24]

Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:

I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.^[30]

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference during 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war."^[31][32]
In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying:

Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us… But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.^[33]

ah, wikipedija
jebate ,nemoj me

Leviathan2 wrote:
ah, wikipedija
jebate ,nemoj me

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:
zaključak WW2,  američka industrija i nesretna rusko/ukrainsko/bjelorusko/kazahstansko meso

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

Leviathan2 wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:

Leviathan2 wrote:

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:
točno to. Amerika je pobjedila brojem.. 

gledao sam šta su sve dali Rusima.. 
hranili su im cijelu vojsku na fronti sa USA hranom
dali im 300 000 -400 000 kamiona, koji su bili kvalitetniji od Ruskih i Rusija ih nije trebala proizvoditi nego se fokusirati samo na proizvodnju odličnih T-34 tenkova - opisao sam vam gore koliko si bitni ti kamioni za ratovanje.. 
dali su im nešto tipa 40 ili 60% svih granata itd
dali su im ogromne količine goriva za avione, rusko gorivo za ruske avione je bilo loše kvalitete, ili se mješalo sa američkim ili se koristilo samo američko.. nešto tipa 30-40% goriva 
ogromne količine goriva za tenkove i kamione(iako neznam koliko točno , možda i nije bitno)
recimo rusija je imala kroničan nedostatak aluminija koji je važan u proizvodnji od tenkova do aviona, imali su ga čak 4puta manje nego njemci, - nebi uopće mogli proizvoditi toliko tenkova i aviona, da nije bilo američkog aluminija
telegrafske žice, milijune kilometara doslovno, što je omogućilo bolju komunikaciju ruske vojske
radio stanice koje su tko god kuži u ratovanje, zna koliko su bitne radio stanice, ruske su bile sranje, pa su ih prestali proizvoditi i koristili samo američke
ogromnu količinu civilnih automobila koji su nužni za funkcionirane države.. rusi zbog toga nisu trebali svoje tvornice prešaltavati u civilne automobile, nego se samo fokusirati na tenkove
spomenio sam ogromne količine goriva za avione, ali i velik broj samih aviona..
recimo u bitci za moskvu, u pojedinim segmentima fronte, 40% svih teških i srednjih tenkova su bili britanski tenkovi..
plus razne industrijske pogone itd,

mislim da tu ima dosta pretjerivanja, ispada na kraju da su ameri maltene sve rusima poslali, jesu poslali ogroman broj kamiona, no 300 000 kamiona bi bilo kao da su imali 20 brodova koji su svakodnevno uplovljavali u cccp do kraj arata, nemojmo sad biti ko .. da ne spomenem one koji uvelicavaju :)
sve to skupa da prevezu u cccp bi im trebale godine , dajte ljudi smanjite malo, a cisto me zanima kud bi dostavili britanske tenkove :)
mislim, naletih na svakojake informacije o cccp i ogroman dio je cisto pretjerivanje, sto samih rusa sto amera, a najvise prednjace ukrajinci i poljaci

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

evo ti sa vikipedije.. citiraju sovjetske povjesničare, žukova, hrušćeva i staljina

Significance[edit]

Ratio of Gross domestic product between Allied and Axis powers, 1938–1945. See Military production during World War II.

Lend-Lease helped the British and other Allied forces win the war. Even after the United States forces in Europe and the Pacific began to attain full strength during 1943–1944, Lend-Lease continued. Most remaining Allies were largely self-sufficient in frontline equipment (such as tanks and fighter aircraft) by this time, but Lend-Lease provided a useful supplement in this category even so, and Lend-Lease logistical supplies (including motor vehicles and railroad equipment) were of enormous assistance.^[24]
Much of the aid can be better understood when considering the economic distortions caused by the war. Most belligerent powers decreased severely production of non-essentials, concentrating on producing weapons. This inevitably produced shortages of related products needed by the military or as part of the military-industrial complex. For example, the USSR was very dependent on rail transportation, but the war practically ended rail equipment production. Just 446 locomotives were produced during the war,^[25] with only 92 of those being built between 1942 and 1945.^[26] In total, 92.7% of the wartime production of railroad equipment by the USSR was supplied by Lend-Lease,^[24] including 1,911 locomotives and 11,225 railcars^[27] which augmented the existing prewar stocks of at least 20,000 locomotives and half a million railcars.^[28]
Furthermore, much of the logistical assistance of the Soviet military was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed, by 1945, nearly a third of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge ¾ ton and Studebaker2½ ton were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminum, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.^[29]
Lend-Lease also supplied significant amounts of weapons and ammunition. The Soviet air force received 18,200 aircraft, which amounted to about 30% of Soviet wartime aircraft production (mid 1941-45).^[24] And while most tank units were Soviet-built models, some 7,000 Lend-Lease tanks were deployed by the Red Army, or 8% of war-time production.
According to the Russian historian Boris Vadimovich Sokolov, Lend-Lease had a crucial role in winning the war:

On the whole the following conclusion can be drawn: that without these Western shipments under Lend-Lease the Soviet Union not only would not have been able to win the Great Patriotic War, it would not have been able even to oppose the German invaders, since it could not itself produce sufficient quantities of arms and military equipment or adequate supplies of fuel and ammunition. The Soviet authorities were well aware of this dependency on Lend-Lease. Thus, Stalin told Harry Hopkins [FDR's emissary to Moscow in July 1941] that the U.S.S.R. could not match Germany's might as an occupier of Europe and its resources.^[24]

Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:

I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.^[30]

Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference during 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: "Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war."^[31][32]
In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying:

Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us… But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.^[33]

ah, wikipedija
jebate ,nemoj me

u vikipediji su navedene knjige koje su pisali kako zapadni povjesničari tako ruski.  sa znanstvene strane ako je ispravan izvor, onda je i ispravan argument. 
sa tvoje strane vjerojatno postoji niti jedan izvor, ništa, stoga u akademskoj raspravi tvoji argumenti ne vrijede.. jebiga, takva su pravila

Speare Shaker wrote:

Leviathan2 wrote:
ah, wikipedija
jebate ,nemoj me

The USSR received a total of 44,000 American jeeps, 375,883 cargo trucks, 8,071 tractors and 12,700 tanks. Additionally, 1,541,590 blankets, 331,066 liters of alcohol, 15,417,000 pairs of army boots, 106,893 tons of cotton, 2,670,000 tons of petroleum products and 4,478,000 tons of food supplies made their way into the Soviet Union.

‘The Russian government wants to hide the fact that it receives help from outside’

And yet, during the war the Soviet government diminished the role of foreign aid.

https://www.rbth.com/defence/2016/03/14/lend-lease-how-american-supplies-aided-the-ussr-in-its-darkest-hour_575559

Leviathan2 wrote:

moze i neki drugi izvor
samo ne wikipedija

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:koji je recimo kontra argument  ekipe koja smanjuje efekt USA vojne pomoći rusiji?

par je kontra argumenta, pošto levi nezna napisati ništa ja ću napisati umjesto njega

1)da je većina pomoći došla tek od 1942 pa nadalje, kada su Njemci praktički skoro(skoro) pa sa samim sovjetskim resursima sami zaustavljeni (zima 1941, bitka kod moskve itd)-
2)da je taj usa pomoć, činili neki manji % sovjetskog BDPa(neznam točno koliko ali nije neki bolesni postotak možda čak i jednoznamenkasti broj.. što je točno

međutim argument 
1)rat 1941 nije bio gotov.. njemci su u 1942 još više osvojili.. rat je gotov tek 1945
2)jest manji dio sovjetskog BDPa, vjerojatno jednoznamenkasti broj,.. međutim..  sovjeti su imali nekoliko puta manje aluminija nego njemci. .bili sa toliko malo aluminija mogli imati toliku proizvodnju tenkova , i aviona? bili mogli proizvesti toliko tenkova i aviona , da su morali proizvoditi i civilne automobile itd?  recimo USA je poslala dosta industrijskih pogona, što je omogućilo da se poveća proizvodnja.. primjer, netko ti pošalje industrijski pogon vrijedan 1milijun $, a ti od njega proizvedeš 10milijuna $ robe, .. to su takvi omjeri..  eto

AssadNaPodmornici wrote:isto bi bilo i da se danas švabe krenu naoružavat.. recimo zajedno sa dijelom EU koje bi ovi kontrolirali.. 

danas bi Njemačka ekonomija i industrija zajedno sa jeftinom radnom snagom sa balkana, istočne europe, mogla bez problema prebaciti u proizvodnji ne samo jadne ruse(oni su danas industrijski poprilično slabi danas su na razini italije, a u ww2 italija nije bila industrijska sjena sssru , danas italija čak i ima ukupno jaču industrijsku proizvodnju) nego čak i amerikance

to nebi bio problem njemcima.. uskoro bi u njemačkoj, austriji, uz dodatak jeftine radne snage iz poljske, slovačke, hrvatsk,e bosne, srbije,  -- bilo toliko oružja da bi se i Putin i Trump usrali u gaće.. 

međutim? šta onda? Rusija zatvori izvoz nafte, minerala, željaza , i plina iz Rusije, a Ameri uvedu pomorsku blokadu da ovi nemogu kupovati iz drugih djelova svijeta..

Njemačka unatoč moćnoj industriji i ogromnoj vojsci , opet kapitulira u roku 2-3 godine :D